[00:00:10] Ray Latif: Hello friends, I'm Ray Latif and you're tuned into Taste Radio, the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food or beverage. What makes a brand worth betting on? Ken Sadowsky, affectionately known as the beverage whisperer, returns to Taste Radio with a sharp look at where the biggest opportunities and potential pitfalls are emerging across the beverage category. A senior advisor at Verlinvest, board director Vita Coco, and Icelandic Glacial, an early-stage investor in several emerging beverage brands, Ken explains why coconut water still has plenty of runway, what founders can learn from playing the long game, and why he believes that Colostrum could represent the next big functional beverage opportunity. Ken also shares his perspective on the rise of caffeine-free energy, hydration, matcha, protein, and functional beverages. He also offers candid takes on celebrity-backed brands, flavor vs. function, packaging, category positioning, and the question he always asks when evaluating any new beverage. Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. Right now, I am supremely honored to welcome back to the studio Ken Sadowsky, also known as the Beverage Whisperer. Ken, it's great to see you. Great to see you and it's an honor to be here. So the feeling is mutual. I thank you so much for saying that. How you doing? Feeling good about the Sox? What a turnaround.
[00:01:44] Ken Sadowsky: I am feeling so unbelievable about the Red Sox and just quick anecdote about Boston Sports Radio last Saturday. where one of the announcers quickly said that, I know the calendar says August 1st, but the Red Sox were at 21 and 4 in July. So this is now July 32nd. Tomorrow is July 33rd. Like we are having never ending July because we don't want it to end.
[00:02:11] Ray Latif: I always wonder when they talk about a team winning something out of something. So the Sox have won 30 out of 35. Why'd they pick 35 as the aggregate number of games that they would choose from?
[00:02:24] Ken Sadowsky: I don't know other than to prove the hyperbolic point of the team is on a roll. Okay, fair enough.
[00:02:32] Ray Latif: This has become an annual tradition, having you come to the Taste Radio studio here at BevNET headquarters in Newton, Massachusetts. You're a local guy, so it's not too much of a drive for you, but I know how busy you are, so I really appreciate you taking the time, and I really appreciate you loading up our table with at least 20 to 25 beverage brands, literally from all over the world. We've got brands from the U.S. obviously, we've got brands from England, we've got brands from Japan, Korea, I think, yeah?
[00:02:58] Ken Sadowsky: Poland, from when I went to Gulf food in January. Yeah, there's some eclectic countries represented here compared to my normal travels.
[00:03:06] Ray Latif: Yeah. I don't see a coconut water brand on the table. Maybe there's some coconut water in one of these brands, and we're going to sip on some of these and crack these open very soon. But I got to ask you about a recent article on BevNET that our dear colleague Brad Avery wrote, and the title is, How Coconut Water Quietly Became One of the Fastest Growing Categories in Beverage. Ken was one of the original. backers and believers in coconut water and more specifically Vita Coco, which is the category leader, the dominant brand in the space. Okay, fingers crossed. It's also a publicly traded company, so I know you can't say too, too much. You're on the board. But I've been seeing this too over the last six months or so. Not only have I seen more people drink coconut water, but I've seen a lot of entrepreneurs get into this space. And frankly, I thought coconut water had hit its ceiling, had hit its peak and Vita Coco was the brand, you know, you had Harmless Harvest as well, and maybe some other also brands, Zico, obviously. But what's going on here? And how does it fit into the overall trends that we're seeing in beverage?
[00:04:12] Ken Sadowsky: Sure, well, there's several factors. It's not just one thing that became the key unlock, but it's been a fascinating ride. I was talking to another beverage industry vet on my drive in, Kevin Clock, from Sparkling Ice Talking Rain. Now Orange Toucan. Orange Toucan. Yeah. And we were talking about how things that are built properly are not overnight successes. And Vita Coco, my first investment was in 2006 and it's just been a great ride. And education is always a component of making a brand bigger and the simple push-pull of the beverage industry has really been a part of what has made this a success. The push is the team Vita Coco has executed well and put it on the right store shelves at the right price in the right proximity to peers. There's a lot of Ps there. But then the marketing team has been unbelievable at pulling it off the shelf. And a lot of people just you know, whether they're raising money and they want to get the money to get on the shelf and they think they've achieved their goal. No, the achievement is when you get people so interested in it that they're pulling it off the shelf. That has been a long trip and just a continuous rise in revenue and I guess the hiccup was in people's perception, you know, I love Coca-Cola, but I'm going to throw them under the bus here. Because when they owned Zico, they would go in and talk to the world's largest retailers and say, not that Zico was not selling and that they couldn't manage a small brand. They were throwing the category under the bus and the retailers listened to them. So Coconut Water's space contracted. And so a lot of people watching the category said, yeah, the category stopped to take a breath and even declined a little bit, but it was only in the scannable channels. Vita Coco27;s revenue has never declined. We've been fighting the good fight since day one. And hydration is one of the categories, one of the many categories that I see in silos. And you have one silo of science, let's call it Gatorade and that ilk. And then there's the natural side of that, which is one ingredient coconut water. And I just think the youngest consumers are coming into the category looking at, hey, why wouldn't I have a one ingredient in this vessel versus having what a scientist made? A couple of things to unpack there.
[00:06:45] Ray Latif: There is a significant amount of sugar in coconut water. Essentially it's coconut juice. I mean, there is just sugar, naturally occurring sugar in juice. How does that play into modern consumers' mindset when they're buying beverages?
[00:07:02] Ken Sadowsky: Well, certainly sugar continues to be vilified. And that's why you see sort of the ambient juice aisle in a supermarket in decline and just looking at their scan data. That is a category that's down. I think people give coconut water a pass because it is just naturally occurring sugar. And also the fact that it's significantly less than orange juice and a lot of the other full fruit juices.
[00:07:30] Ray Latif: The other thing you mentioned is that Coke had influenced the big retail chains as to the future of the category, their perspective on the future of the category. Do categories go where strategics go?
[00:07:44] Ken Sadowsky: In the oldest days, and you can tell by my hair color, it's not that I'm using shampoo 16 times a day, but in the oldest days, Coke and Pepsi fought for their retail space in the aisle and for secondary tertiary placement in the store by writing checks. And those checks went for both paying for real estate and then also paying for frequency and depth of promotions. And so that's how the supermarket category managers used to get their grades. If you want an A on your report card, you brought in a lot of money. Some of that money came from velocity of having the right SKU mix. And some of it came from the big multinationals just coming in and writing checks for their real estate.
[00:08:30] Ray Latif: But for example, kombucha as a category, if Coke or Pepsi or Kirk, Dr. Pepper were to say, you know what, we don't really believe in this category. We wouldn't invest in this. We would advise you to invest in space for another category. Is that something that would concern or that should be of concern to potential entrepreneurs in space or current ones?
[00:08:50] Ken Sadowsky: I would say short term, yes. I mean, at the end of the day, the truth comes out and category managers change. It's not even that category manager A is not a category manager next year. They may have been shifted to a different category, have a different lens, different perspective. At the end of the day, I think the right thing happens for the consumers. But short term, there are examples of like what happened to coconut water.
[00:09:14] Ray Latif: Yeah. I ask this because founders typically take their cues from early stage brands, from cutting edge trends. Sometimes, though, they see what the big brands are doing and say, hey, they're onto something. They know something. We should follow their lead. And, you know, in the case of energy drinks, I don't even know. where people take their cues from these days, because it's such a crowded and extraordinarily competitive category that is owned by, what, five brands at this point? Actually closer to two or three. I mean, if you take Celsius into account, which really came out of nowhere, it's Red Bull, Monster, and Celsius that are really the top three brands in the space, which is why I was kind of interested and a little surprised When you came in and you said that you're working with a new brand called RITE, R-I-T-E, which comes in solid color 12 ounce slim cans and is a brand described as quiet, quote, Rite Energy. Didn't expect this out of you Ken. No, no, no stain, no offense. I'm just Rite Energy, really? Okay.
[00:10:17] Ken Sadowsky: I'm always up for a challenge. Someone called me the whisperer, and this is quiet, so that's pretty analogous. But no, this is caffeine-free energy with ketones and parazanthine. So this is a caffeine-free energy drink, and we just feel like the founders, Brad and BJ, feel like this is a way of approaching caffeine that is way more approachable. And I thought that was a great thing to have happen.
[00:10:49] Ray Latif: This is their watermelon lime variety. Beautiful packaging, by the way, very clean, minimalist. Thank you. I would advise that they update. They can to reflect what you said that is caffeine Rite Energy Because that will appeal to a lot of people because there are a lot of people who are turning on caffeine who never consumed caffeine to begin with and Rite Energy, I guess I get that there's a differentiating factor there, but I don't know exactly what that differentiation is sure I
[00:11:22] Ken Sadowsky: You're right in identifying that, pun intended. We have education to do and we have evolution to do. And one of the evolutions will be in the communication. And that is in the earliest stage on the can. So I do think like this run of product was so small that it's really just going out to the potential investors. and some influencers, like it's not really gonna hit retailers yet, even though the first round of product will look like that substantively on the shelf, we know that the product will evolve, the packaging will evolve.
[00:11:58] Ray Latif: I'm gonna needle you, Ken, just because, you know, that's what our listeners want me to do. This contains sucralose and Ace K, both of which are artificial sweeteners. Yes. I thought we were past that.
[00:12:09] Ken Sadowsky: We call them non-nutritive sweeteners. But look, we were looking for the right flavor and it is not the easiest thing to do to mask ketones and some of the bitter taste notes from parazanthine as well. But we actually are right now in the lab doing a monk fruit flavor that would be Whole Foods compliant. So we have friends at Whole Foods and I shop at Whole Foods and we want to make something that is Whole Foods compliant as well. But this is going to get launched in probably something like Wisconsin. And we just wanted to have the flavor profile approachable in the middle America profile.
[00:12:51] Ray Latif: Again, beautiful packaging. I've talked to designers and investors and founders, successful ones who have said that your best form of marketing, your most obvious form of marketing is your front of pack. It is your billboard. It's what people are going to see. It's probably their first interaction with your brand is going to be the front of pack here. When you're shopping and something stands out to you, what is it about the package?
[00:13:18] Ken Sadowsky: You know, I think it varies by product category and the set of the peers, if you will. And it's one of the things I don't want to get back into the P's, but at least you're sitting far enough away that even if I articulate my P's too much... I've had to duck a couple times, by the way. Then I'm really not whispering. But I mean, it does, it has to do with what does that product set look like? Who are the peers? And the peers are, you know, things that are in usually like packaging, but you still want it to stand out. And so what are you doing on the label? And then there is the price point. Supermarkets and smaller format stores all want to have their products that are like organized properly.
[00:14:02] Ray Latif: That was kind of a trap here because there's another article I'm going to reference on BevNET here that says, the title of which is, Consumers are shopping beverages by benefit, not category, says new FMI report. You're seeing this as well?
[00:14:17] Ken Sadowsky: Yeah, I mean, it's sort of occasion based, but I think that the occasion does blend in with that, you know, those two things can be simpatico or analogous and they'll be with each other. But yes, it is a new way of looking at it. It's a different lens. But at the end of the day, I think the shelf space, I mean, you're not going to see, you know, progressions of water with then enhanced water and then going on to the next thing, which might be sparkling water. All of those things are still a flow of a store. And I just think there's no way of getting around that. But smaller format stores where it's cold single and discovery happens, I think you'll see more of the occasion based stuff.
[00:15:01] Ray Latif: So for a brand like Wright, do you want to see this Rite Energy or do you want to see this in some sort of other functional set? Again, because there's a ketogenic benefit that isn't necessarily related Rite Energy drinks or Monster Energy drinks that is.
[00:15:13] Ken Sadowsky: My assumption going in is that yes, it should be Rite Energy, but I also don't think that I have all the answers ever. So if I'm proven wrong, that's what part of my sort of axiom in the space or one of my axioms in the space is let the consumer tell us what's going on and make sure that we've got enough eyes and ears to inspect what we expect.
[00:15:40] Ray Latif: Well, let's pull this one. I'm pretty sure you're not invested in this brand. You are invested in a non-alcoholic cocktail brand called Parch. Yes. Fantastic brand. This is a cocktail brand. And I know the last time we sat down, we did talk quite a bit about RTD cocktails. And the potential for them, but it seems like there's still a lot of enthusiasm, but a lot of confusion. A lot of questions about the potential for non elk and elk RTD cocktails. This brand is called Suburban. S-U-B-O-U-R-B-O-N. Subourbon Life, I think is the actual name of the brand, right? Correct. Yeah. And it's a RTD cocktail brand. This is their espresso martini variety. Why wouldn't we try that? You know, early into the conversation or early-ish into the conversation, why not indeed? Comes in this slim silver can, a 12 ounce, also pretty good packaging. Although I wouldn't necessarily know immediately that it was a canned cocktail. You want the same cup. No, I just didn't know how long our arms were collectively. We're actually, yeah, we've messed with the studio, so. Now it's a little bit more difficult for Ken and I to pass beverages. Well, I'll talk to our team about this.
[00:16:52] Ken Sadowsky: It's a microphone obstacle course for me because I'm not that coordinated. Is this a British brand? No, this is the one that was sent to me with no note on it. And then later, Albie Manzo from formerly of Real Housewives of New Jersey sent me a thing saying, I'm sorry, I had a sickness. I went to the hospital with a tonsillectomy and couldn't talk for a while and just got way behind on work. So this was sitting in my place in the winter. And I just sat there for several months because I was like, OK, great. Someone sent me something. Do they want me poisoned? I mean you're a very likable guy, but I'm sure you have your What they call them these days you're all I was gonna I was gonna say you might just call it an enema I mean an enemy given what I did earlier we
[00:17:43] Ray Latif: This is pretty good. It's described as the most refreshing daytime bourbon cocktail. A bourbon cocktail brand won our cocktail showdown competition a couple of years ago. That brand is called Ponyboy Cocktails. Fantastic brand based out of Kentucky. They make just some delicious products, but this is very easy to drink. You know, a lot of espresso martinis are pretty thick and This just feels like you could pound two, three of these and do it very easily. So it's espresso martini-ish, I think, more than it is an espresso martini per se. 5% alcohol. Also, you know, pretty tame.
[00:18:20] Ken Sadowsky: Yes. And I remember last summer we spoke about Moth. Yep. And Moth is doing well. They just did another raise. You're invested in Moth as well? I'm invested in Moth. A British brand of canned cocktails. Yes. Really good. And then, you know, my friend Jason Cohen has Spiked Aid, which is an alcoholic Gatorade, and it is delicious. Also sweetened with sucralose. Not that I took my cues from that, but, uh, Jason's brand is doing really nicely. And so is Superlite, the competitive brand, but Spiked Ape came out first and the flavors are spot on. And I just think he's doing really well. I know they had a, I think they had a million cases done so far this year, which is pretty amazing.
[00:19:04] Ray Latif: Okay, let's go on to another category that's really not doing anything. Nobody's really investing in this space. This is a brand of prebiotic soda. I mean, who's investing in this brand? Pepsi? Two billion dollars worth of money? Eh, it's not that much. Now, obviously, once again, Ingest. This is a brand called YASS. Y-A-S-S. It is a British brand of, as I mentioned, prebiotic soda. This is their red and blue berries variety. Slim can again, lots of slim cans today.
[00:19:32] Ken Sadowsky: And I didn't try any of these. A lot of times I, like the last morning I'm in the particular city that I'm traveling to, in this case London, I'll be like, oh my goodness, these won't fit in my suitcase. I am not taking these home. I'm going to drink every one of them now. And then I get stuck with an overweight charge from British Airways or whomever. And actually the other thing that's hysterical is I was just on a Sunday morning pub run in London and I always look for Old Speckled Hen. And I found a pub that had Old Speckled Hen and I had my first one and just, you know, enjoying my first drink of the day on a Sunday when everyone else is doing their proper Sunday roasts. And I get a tap on the shoulder, and who is it but Chris Hall? So speaking of Poppy, it was just so funny. I mean, we didn't know that we were in London, and then we wound up at the same pub. He was not there for Old Speckled Hen, but we might have had a few pints after that.
[00:20:35] Ray Latif: Yeah, Chris Hall, the CEO of Poppy, when it was acquired by PepsiCo. This is fantastic, this brand YAS.
[00:20:42] Ken Sadowsky: I do like this.
[00:20:43] Ray Latif: Liquid's good. It's almost like a cross between a sparkling water and a soda. It definitely feels much lighter in terms of sugar content than you would expect from a soda.
[00:20:54] Ken Sadowsky: Yep, I was going to say that. That's a European thing where they don't over sugar. It might be a French brand because everything is in French with each other. Did I buy that in Paris? I did go. I'm sorry. I did go from London to Paris. Okay.
[00:21:07] Ray Latif: So maybe this is a French brand, but it's really, it's great. It definitely feels like it's appealing to the Gen Z consumer. Yas is a term that, well, younger folks use. It almost looks like a little bit like poppy, you know, except it's in a slim can. And then it calls out in French that there's 60% less sugar than leading sodas. I think this is related to some of the brands that you brought, including Right, which you've talked about the two ingredients that are in your mind trending or will be trending within the beverage category. Flavor versus function. I'm sure we've talked about this before, but how should founders consider the two and how should they align both when they're building brands?
[00:21:51] Ken Sadowsky: The thing that I always use as a decision-making hierarchy for consumers is, is a consumer picking this up because it's refreshment or are they picking it up because it's functional? And I think that's literally the first thing they decide. And then the second thing in that hierarchy is, does this have sugar or is it a diet drink, non-nutritive sweetener, you know, five calories or less kind of thing? I do believe that those are the original sets of criteria. But to jump back in to answer your question, I think of Red Bull when it first launched in the U.S. and people were like, I don't know what this flavor is, but it's not good. But the product definitely works. So, you know, the functionality works for Rite Energy drink category. There are other categories where things do not get a pass if they don't taste good, like people just will not go back. and drink them again if it's not a good tasting product. So at the end of the day, the product has to taste good. If it's a refreshment product and it's trying to beat its peers, it has to taste great. But if it's got a functional component, then it has to taste good. So does that make sense?
[00:23:05] Ray Latif: It does. As a consumer, I'm always going to reach for flavor first. I don't really... care how much functional benefit something has in it. If it doesn't taste good, I'm not going to drink it. I'm wondering if an entrepreneur says, well, I have something that's so compelling in terms of its functional benefit that people are going to buy it because of the functional benefit. Even if it tastes good, I'm wondering how much they should lean into the function in their marketing versus the flavor in that positioning.
[00:23:36] Ken Sadowsky: Well, that gets into something that I discuss fairly regularly with entrepreneurs. And that is, if it's function first, then what is your price point? Like, will someone really pay up for this? And then, you know, I even think about just the conversation I had with Kevin Klock where Moringa has been a tough flavor to get to taste right. And that's his key ingredient in his new brand, Orange Toucan. Yep. And so it's an anti-inflammatory and it helps with people's ability to move around freely. And that's a great functional benefit. But if it doesn't taste good, then people will not give it a pass. It doesn't have to taste great. You don't want to think you're having nerds, but it has to be something that you'll go back to.
[00:24:24] Ray Latif: for this brand Yas, all the communication about it being, having probiotics, having a fiber benefit, having a gut health benefit, I almost wish they would just drop a lot of that and say, this is a great tasting, better for you soda. Not exactly in the way I described it, but that would lead me to believe perhaps as a consumer that it is better tasting than it would be otherwise. Cause I'm thinking, oh, fiber, prebiotics, it's just not going to taste like what I'm used to tasting. So sometimes I think that's where consumers are and it happens a lot where you see something that says zero sugar or you see something that says this has added Protein Pop added fiber and you automatically think it's just not going to taste as good as it should in the consumer's mind.
[00:25:13] Ken Sadowsky: Or the price point connotes something where, hey, this better have something extra in it because I'm paying up. Right.
[00:25:21] Ray Latif: Leisure Hydration, brand that's been on the market for at least five or six years now, maybe even longer than that, right?
[00:25:27] Ken Sadowsky: I don't think it's been out longer than four years, but I could be wrong.
[00:25:32] Ray Latif: Okay, because these folks, I'm pretty sure joined us for a New Beverage Showdown. Were you part of a panel evaluating this brand?
[00:25:40] Ken Sadowsky: No.
[00:25:40] Ray Latif: No, but you are an investor in Leisure Hydration now.
[00:25:43] Ken Sadowsky: Yes.
[00:25:44] Ray Latif: They've been doing some great things, a lot of traction for the brand that used to be known as Leisure Project. Now they're known as Leisure Hydration, which obviously connotes a very specific function and a very easy one for consumers to understand. At the bottom of the can, it's described as an electrolyte refresher. Now, if you are a Chase Sapphire cardholder, you've probably seen this brand in the lounges, which was a big coup for Leisure Hydration because what else is in there? Spindrift, a couple of Coca-Cola products, and I think that's it in terms of canned beverages. Why Leisure Hydration? What made you believe in this brand?
[00:26:18] Ken Sadowsky: Well, I do like the brothers. They're scrappy, they're hustlers. One of them was a UCLA football player.
[00:26:25] Ray Latif: Well, the hydration benefit is interesting. And going back to what we just talked about, this is something where if I'm thinking, am I drinking this for flavor? Am I drinking this for function? This is a function first product for me. Hydration, if I need some water, but I want something other than water, I would turn to a product like this. If I wanted a sports drink, but didn't want all the sugar and artificial colors in a sports drink, I would turn to this. I have always wondered, and I think the folks from Leisure Hydration have talked about this, but what is the reason why people pick up a can of Leisure Hydration? What's the most compelling attribute of this brand? As an investor, what was most compelling for you?
[00:27:05] Ken Sadowsky: That they're not taking themselves too seriously in the sort of comparison of the Gatorades and, you know, be like Mike, drink Gatorade. You're going to go out and, you know, dunk a basketball. And these guys are doing stuff for the rest of us, if you will. And the other thing that I think doesn't get enough airplay, if you will, is with America's fixation Onyx Coffee culture, whether it's, you know, matcha or actual coffee and Rite Energy drinks, they're all diuretics. All these caffeinated drinks are diuretics. And there's a symbiotic relationship between coffee culture and hydration. And it's really why I'm enamored with VitaCoco and to a certain extent, you know, these other things that are just hydration, electrolytes, but not taking themselves too seriously. And it's look at the sticks that are out there, you know, like liquid IV and that kind of stuff. There's so many things that are options for rehydration and I just think no one has successfully talked about the relationship between all the diuretics that consumers are drinking and therefore the need for these rehydration beverages.
[00:28:23] Ray Latif: Yeah, and to your point, the tagline at least at the top of the can is hydrate, chill, repeat. So they're not necessarily being very determinative about how you drink this. They're just saying it's in a very fun and relaxed way, hydrate, chill, repeat. But they're not saying you have to drink this after working out or you have to drink this before you're working out. It's very much a enjoy what you're drinking kind of beverage, which I like a lot.
[00:28:50] Ken Sadowsky: I mean, 50% of Americans are walking around dehydrated and it's the cause of a lot of headaches. Like instead of taking Bayer or Bufferin, just drink water or drink an electrolyte beverage and get yourself into proper hydration mode. That was your opportunity to say just drink Leisure Hydration.
[00:29:09] Ray Latif: Or viticoco or Icelandic Glacial water or Neau Water or any of the other things I I'm sort of focused on the Keeping people hydrated fair enough People are getting energized with matcha quite a bit these days much is becoming much more of a household name You seem to see a lot of kids drinking matcha nowadays, which just seems like it's a boon for the category. Any Starbucks store or any other proper coffee shop is selling matcha. In RTD form, there's at least a dozen brands that I can think of that are in this space. This one I have not seen before. This is a European brand. It's called EatYX. EatYX? I don't even know.
[00:29:49] Ken Sadowsky: That's the Polish brand for sure. And they had a fascinating booth at Gulf Foods. And one of the things that I liked was they're the same people that make the Gatorade-esque beverage called Oshe, O-S-H-E-E. And I had a feeling it was a Polish outfit because their spokesperson for the hydration Gatorade competitor was Iga Świątek, and she's just a great tennis player, but I don't know if anyone that's not a tennis follower would be able to pick her out of the lineup. But she happens to be great and she happens to be Polish. And so that was my first clue.
[00:30:34] Ray Latif: This looks like a lot of matcha drinks that you would see kids sipping on. Kids or adults really, sipping on. It's a strawberry matcha latte flavor. Strong viscosity. It's pretty thick. There is a little, just a hint of grittiness in this, which I think people are fine with if it's not overly gritty. And I think more than anything, you can taste the matcha. You can taste the strawberry. You can definitely tell that this is a coffee drink. I think they did a really good job with it. My question is, would this branding work in the United States? And I have to say probably not.
[00:31:12] Ken Sadowsky: Agreed. But I don't think that was their goal. I think Kenny just went by the booth and was sort of enamored with the breadth of their offerings and then started speaking to their US agent. And he just said, here, let me load you up with this stuff. So again, you know, having gone to Dubai, that one I did manage to get home with just my existing suitcases. have to buy another suitcase, thankfully.
[00:31:39] Ray Latif: Yeah, and it's a plastic bottle. I can't even tell. I want to say it's probably 10 ounces, perhaps, maybe 11.
[00:31:46] Ken Sadowsky: I was going to say, it's probably a European compliant 330 ml or something, right, which would make it 11.2. Okay.
[00:31:53] Ray Latif: Yes, it's 300 ml. Ah, good. Yep. It comes in a almost full wrap label. And this actually somehow looks like a brand that would be promoted by a sports figure, a tennis player, perhaps. Earlier, you had mentioned a real husbands, housewives person who is behind one of the brands that we... Suburban. Behind Suburban. Someone asked me about celebrities and getting people to promote their brand through a well-known famous figure, whether they're in sports, entertainment, music, what have you. What's your stance on that?
[00:32:34] Ken Sadowsky: It's definitely a component of potential success. I think the other thing that it is, is not original anymore. And I'm hoping that when consumers see this on TikTok shop or Instagram or wherever they see it, that they don't smell that it's a contrived paid sponsorship because that's, you know, just, okay, so someone paid them to do that this week. What are they doing next week? It's better when that athlete, musician, celebrity, entertainer invests in the brand and really gets behind it. But even then it's like, are their zealots, are their followers going to buy just because they see their idol or this week's idol pushing something on them that, you know, it will definitely get discovery. I don't know if it adds anything to conversion to purchase and then repeat.
[00:33:38] Ray Latif: Maybe you should just put your name on the can, like a Ben Stiller. How'd you like that transition? I knew you were going somewhere. Ben Stiller has a new soda brand. You've probably heard of it. It's called Stillers. S-T-I-L-L-E-R apostrophe S. They have four varieties. This variety is their root beer.
[00:33:56] Ken Sadowsky: You've never tried this product, have you? I've never tried it. And what I know about the carbonated soft drink industry is that root beer is the toughest flavor to produce.
[00:34:05] Ray Latif: So that's why I bought it. I have had this product and it's delicious in my opinion if I remember unless they change the flavor which you know early stage brands tend to mess with their flavors every so often so let's give this a whirl. First of all it looks like a root beer which goes a long way it doesn't look like a carbonated water root beer I think people know what I'm talking about. The tagline is the world's refreshingest soda. It's got 30 calories per 12 ounce can. It's the classic wide can. Seven grams of total sugar, which is great for a soda. It's also described as a natural soda and that there's no fake stuff. What are your thoughts?
[00:34:45] Ken Sadowsky: The level of brightness or flavor forward that I would expect when I see 30 calories and not a non-nutritive sweetener on the panel, it is a really good tasting product. Even better that you poured it into the cup. The smell, the old factory sensation is definitely there and that's an important part of root beer because if it were any more caloric, I would be asking for vanilla ice cream right now.
[00:35:17] Ray Latif: You've either got to be really confident or really crazy, maybe a little bit of both to get into the soda category. Is that something you would ever invest in?
[00:35:25] Ken Sadowsky: I don't think so because at my stage of life, I think I'm just what makes me tick is getting involved with innovation. But I'm not saying it's uninvestable. And the other thing that I see most often is, hey, we're entering a new category. That category is growing. All we need is 1% of that category and we will have a big brand. But the other thing I see is we want to get into traditional category, in this case, CSD, and we want to disrupt it. And by disrupting it, we will do X, Y, and Z. There's no right or wrong. Things like this are investable. And I just like conjure up the really smart insight of Rohan Ozo with the modern soda set that he convinced Walmart they should do. And that really is what was, I think, the key inflection point for Poppy. So modern soda, if stillers, for example, can get into that set, that's going to be a benefit for them. And then the other thing that I've seen is Pepsi is not still having success with poppy growing. It's not going to go away, but you know, it may leave opportunities for that same amount of shelf space to have some new entrants.
[00:36:46] Ray Latif: For the velocities in beverage, for great beverage brands, it's ridiculous. I mean, you're talking about literally billions of products sold every year. And that is always something that comes up when I'm looking at or evaluating new brands. I'm like, could this sell a billion cans? And I think that kind of answers the question for a lot of early stage entrepreneurs, for angels, because angels want to see that huge windfall sale at some point. And I'm not picking on this brand whatsoever. It just, this is a brand that just happens to be my hand. This is a brand called Gimber, G-I-M-B-E-R. Could be Jimber or Gimber. Yeah. I don't even know. It's a sparkling beverage brand that comes in this 10 ounce slim can. And I like the fact that some of the verbiage is upside down. Yeah, so the side of the can says, upside down, it says, flip to get your natural kick. It is made with ginger, lemon, and herbs. It doesn't necessarily describe a functional benefit. I think ginger is the benefit perhaps, but let me pour you some. Thank you. This looks like you found this in Paris as well.
[00:37:47] Ken Sadowsky: I'm not going to guess anymore, but if there's French on it or if there's a price sticker on it and it's in euros, not pounds, then I'm going with the S.
[00:37:55] Ray Latif: It tastes like a ginger ale, a little flatter than most ginger ales that you might be drinking. But it's great. The ginger flavor is excellent. You can tell it's natural. Not a lot of sugar, which is great too, or at least that I can taste. Right.
[00:38:09] Ken Sadowsky: And I would say balanced out with a lemon. Some of the ginger is bitter or ginger flavor, and then I'm getting lemon on the back end.
[00:38:17] Ray Latif: The ingredients in order are sparkling water, ginger juice, lemon juice, and then cane sugar. There's a few ingredients after that. But I appreciate the fact that the second ingredient is ginger juice as opposed to cane sugar, which I think in most ginger ales, it's high fructose corn syrup or sugar. This is an excellent beverage. I think in its current form, I wouldn't bet on it as a billion dollar or selling a billion cans. But I think this is as modern consumers look to beverages like this this this has got a shot. This is delicious I like the logo. Yeah, it feels Tesla ish. Can I say that you just did yeah? Yeah, it's it's vertical which Mike Schneider our CMO would complain about but what does he know right I?
[00:39:04] Ken Sadowsky: Mean just look at his football team preferences.
[00:39:07] Ray Latif: Oh boy.
[00:39:07] Speaker: Oh
[00:39:08] Ken Sadowsky: He's probably listening to this and he's going to come flying through that door. That wouldn't be the first time, but I just wanted to jump back to one thing. When you talked about velocity, just one really funny, quick anecdote. I remember when Mike Rapoli and Darius from Vitaminwater bought Pirate's Booty from Rob. Some of his team like at the first trade show I went to I was like, hey, how are you guys? They're like man this product tastes great but they were like going like this like the velocity of snack is just not like beverage like I just You know, we're not for long on this thing because it's just we're yawning. I Yeah. So it was interesting. And of course, Rapolli and Darius turned it into a successful sale, which I would never doubt. But it was just funny because, you know, the velocity of Beveridge. But just hearing that from those guys made me think like, OK, Kenny, stick to your knitting.
[00:40:02] Ray Latif: They know something about Velocity, at least Mike Rapoli does in particular. I mean, he's the most successful beverage entrepreneur in the United States ever. I mean, vitamin water, body armor. He's still got a lot of things going on right now. And I'm not even talking about his 200 horses that he owns in the
[00:40:19] Ken Sadowsky: Yeah, yeah. No, I'm not taking anything away from Mike. He's unbelievable. He's a force of nature. But I think, you know, don't lose sight of like what Farolito and Voltaggio did. Those guys are wildly successful. With Arizona. Yeah. Yeah. So there are some big brands out there that just aren't, you know, the guys aren't into the publicity.
[00:40:38] Ray Latif: You're absolutely right. I mean, and Don Voltaggio is a billionaire in his own right. His two sons, I think are pretty much running the brand now, Spencer and Wesley, but I'm sure he still has a heavy hand in what goes on. And certainly in making sure that that 99 cent price point will be there as long as a kid. I mean, the 99 cent Arizona, the 150 dog and soda special at Costco, these are things that When they change, you'll know the world has changed.
[00:41:04] Ken Sadowsky: Yes.
[00:41:05] Ray Latif: Tectonic shifts. Yeah. Colostrum. Yeah. How do we go from 99 cent iced tea to Colostrum?
[00:41:13] Ken Sadowsky: Well, we're talking about very different price points, but I was really impressed. I took a quick trip in March.
[00:41:21] Ray Latif: Can I set the scene for a second? Because I didn't even do that. I'm holding in my hand a jar of colostrum from a brand called Ancient Nutrition. You brought this. Yes. There's something about this that's interesting to you.
[00:41:33] Ken Sadowsky: Yeah, well, I bought it. And I was a tiny, tiny investor in that brand. So that's why I chose that brand. I mean, if someone can unlock the colostrum key, I think there's a big category there. And I think it is incumbent upon somebody like Fair Life somebody like that, like it's a dairy derivative product. There's something there. I don't know if it's shelf stable if you put it in a solution of water. I don't know if like another one of the brands that I'm associated with or companies that I'm associated with is Nulixer, the nano encapsulation company out of Austin. But it's like if someone can make this an effective dose of colostrum in a beverage, that might be the next unlock, one of the next unlocks.
[00:42:24] Ray Latif: This is, for me, someone who follows the beverage industry every day, follows the food industry every day, I'm still confused about the benefits of colostrum. I know I've heard the word a number of times, but if I'm having a hard time understanding what colostrum is all about, how hard do you think it is going to be for the average consumer? Not even the average consumer, just the natural foods consumer.
[00:42:43] Ken Sadowsky: Education is definitely a part of innovation and it has to start somewhere. And I just think of, you know, the tip of the spear or the core consumer. And then if it's enough benefits to the core consumer, it gets to the more consumer. And that's where things get to be big brands.
[00:43:02] Ray Latif: And I get what you're saying with Fairlife. Of course, Fairlife has a lot of distribution. They have a lot of awareness. A brand like that could go a long way in educating consumers about colostrum. I think, how do you really care about the ingredient as much as you might know about the ingredient? I think that's another part of it as well.
[00:43:21] Ken Sadowsky: Yeah, well, I mean, to me, it's a play with natural longevity. So it's not taking peptides that you're injecting into your side. This is something that comes from the dairy industry, and, you know, it's to be determined, but it could be a miraculous ingredient.
[00:43:40] Ray Latif: Okay, well. The great Ken Sadowsky, the beverage whisperer himself, just said he's following colostrum. So listeners, maybe you should follow colostrum, or at least pay attention to what's going on. I gotta reach for another brand. This is, how about this? We haven't, we barely talked about protein. We're kind of, we're making our way to protein. And here we have Fizzn, Fizzen Protein. It is a sparkling fruit juice drink that's made with added protein, specifically collagen protein. It comes in a 12 ounce, I feel like I'm repeating myself here a thousand times, 12 ounce slim can. This is a painted can. It's red with yellow highlights. Strawberry lemonade is the variety. This, I thought, honestly, was a European brand, but it's not.
[00:44:25] Ken Sadowsky: No, that one I remember buying at Target in West Borough, Mass. You saw this at Target? Yeah. Wow.
[00:44:32] Ray Latif: I would not have expected that because it doesn't look like a... a big brand. And I know, you know, Target doesn't only sell big brands, but this looks like a brand new brand. I've never seen this before.
[00:44:44] Ken Sadowsky: I had never seen it before either. It's incumbent upon me to do store checks. And it's so easy when I live here in Massachusetts for the part of the year that I live here. to do store checks, because I live in Central Mass, and within five miles, I can go to a Target, a Walmart, a Wegmans, a Roach Brothers, a Stop and Shop. I mean, it's just a Whole Foods. It's pretty Target-rich environment for someone like me. No pun intended. And especially when I see something that is, I'm assuming female focused because Target gets more female purchasers than Walmart. Those are the kinds of things that I like to just see what the Target category managers are up to.
[00:45:35] Ray Latif: Yes, entrepreneurs listening, spend a lot of time in grocery stores. You'll get a sense of what's moving, what's not. You put your products on the shelves next to other products, you'll see what is truly differentiated about your package design, perhaps your messaging. But yeah, spend time with the consumer, spend time with people who are walking around and get a sense of what is appealing to them. This is appealing to me only in that I feel like if I wanted a lemonade and could get some extra protein, fair enough. Would I be buying this specifically for the Protein Pop. Is it delicious? It's very good. It's made with real fruit juice and not flavor, as the brand points out. It's got stevia, which you can definitely taste. I can see why Target bought it because I can see them slowly expanding their protein beverage set. Remember they had Protein Pop, I think before anyone else.
[00:46:29] Ken Sadowsky: Protein is definitely prescient and anyone that walked the aisles of Expo West knows how to spell protein backwards, forwards, sideways. It's definitely a category worth. watching and Americans are notorious for just wanting the magic pill. Like there are ways of getting Protein Pop your diet and there are ways of getting Protein Pop value added occasions. And in this case, it's a beverage.
[00:46:57] Ray Latif: We've got at least another dozen unopened cans or bottles here. I don't know if we can get to all of them. But if you had to pick one or two, Ken, which ones would you pick?
[00:47:05] Ken Sadowsky: Ooh, I don't know why I get to pick. It's your show. I really like the grind matcha ready to drink. Okay. So maybe that one. And then I guess I haven't tried whatever this Asian Oh, the Red Bull looking product, but in a... Don Pan. Yeah, this is definitely a Chinese. This is definitely from Gulf Foods in Dubai. And then the other one, that Onyx, I was just curious about. Oh yeah. I know you said one or two and I just chose three, but if we have time for three, those would be my three.
[00:47:37] Ray Latif: Let's get into this Grind. Grind is an iced matcha product. This is their Oatmeal Matcha Latte variety. It comes in a 250 milliliter can. Color scheme is interesting. It's pretty minimalist. You've got this light, green color at the top, and then the rest of the can is silver.
[00:47:53] Ken Sadowsky: Because their color for all of their coffee is pink. Ah, okay. They have shops, they have retail stores in London. I smuggle some of these back too, but it's not smuggling, but they have the Nespresso capsules in sustainable formula. It's like, you know, no plastic, no aluminum. It's a really good execution, and you can get one or two of their SKUs, like House Blend Nespresso, on Amazon. But when you go to London, they have 12 different varieties. So I was in there to buy some of the different varieties to take home, and then I saw that they had a ready-to-drink matcha, so I bought that.
[00:48:33] Ray Latif: This is delicious. Yeah. It's described on the can as creamy, smooth, and ceremonial grade. Smooth is the adjective I would use to describe this. It is eminently drinkable, very, very easy to drink, which not a lot of our ice matches are. It just feels like this flows into your body in a way that I have not experienced before with this category.
[00:48:56] Ken Sadowsky: And I can also, like, if someone were to give that to me without telling me that the product wasn't American, I would guess that it's not American because it's not that level of sweetness that one would expect of an American matcha.
[00:49:11] Ray Latif: Yeah, I'm gonna wait on Rite Energy drink and I'm gonna go to the onyx okay as I mentioned to you I think Onyx Coffee is a maker of whole roasted bean coffee in it. This is the first time I'm seeing an RTD product comes in a 12 ounce black slim can yes, this is a salted mocha variety Monarch espresso dark chocolate sea salt and oat milk American product. Again, I'm always having to check the Nutrition Facts label to make sure.
[00:49:40] Ken Sadowsky: Yeah, that one I remember buying in Walmart because I've never seen it before, have not seen it since, and I really thought it was maybe a Walmart private label.
[00:49:50] Ray Latif: The smell on this, the aroma on this is amazing. As soon as I cracked open the can, I was like, wow, that's coffee. Yeah. Really good.
[00:49:58] Ken Sadowsky: But like a significantly higher bricks count than the matcha that we just drank. Yeah. Not sickly sweet, but definitely like this strikes me as being American. Ready for America.
[00:50:08] Ray Latif: Very much so. Very much that sweetness level that Americans are used to, but with a coffee flavor that is Definitely premium.
[00:50:18] Ken Sadowsky: And I'm surprised at the viscosity again, sort of the thickness of it. Again, not like it's sludge and not going to come out of the can or the vessel that it's in, but I'm surprised at the overall texture.
[00:50:31] Ray Latif: All right, on to the Donpon. This is a 12 ounce, no, I'm just kidding. This is a 16.9 fluid ounce bottle. 500 ml as it were. 500 ml, half a liter, because everyone needs a half liter of energy drinks. 260 calories, 60 grams of sugar. That's what I'm talking about, America. There we go, we got.
[00:50:52] Ken Sadowsky: Just to open that slowly, I would think that might be electric.
[00:50:56] Ray Latif: Okay, it's in this wide body bottle too.
[00:50:58] Ken Sadowsky: Yeah, that's an interesting vessel. It looks like a little missile.
[00:51:01] Ray Latif: Is it non-carb? It's non-carb. Wow. And it looks like apple juice.
[00:51:05] Ken Sadowsky: Which is really kind of Red Bull in color, but people don't pour Red Bull out into a glass. Not often. It smells like penicillin.
[00:51:14] Ray Latif: It actually is in the Red Bull taste family to me. Maybe I messed up by calling it or saying it looked like apple juice because I'm tasting apple juice now. Is there apple in here? I'm getting some apple in there, but it could be the power of suggestion. I don't think there is an actual, real, natural ingredient in here. No, I don't see anything that says. There's a lot of FD&Cs, a lot of non-nutritive sweeteners, as you would describe them, Ken. Yeah, but if it's 260 calories, there's sugar in there too. Yeah, there's high fructose corn syrup. Well, no, there's sugar. Okay. I don't know who would pound this, maybe truckers. I'm not sure who would be drinking this. To our point earlier, our discussion earlier about refreshment versus function. Yeah, more than an ounce of this and I think I would explode. Yeah. That's why there's all kinds of different beverages and all kinds of palates. For sure. Ken, you know, every time we have an opportunity to sit down and chat is just fantastic because like you said before we hopped in the mics, we don't necessarily need an agenda. We can just chat it up and talk shop and enjoy ourselves while tasting 20, 25 different beverages. I'm just really thrilled that our audience gets this opportunity at least once a year to almost sit down with you. They get to hear your voice and hear your perspective on the industry and how it's evolving and your perspective as an investor and as an observer as well. And I think it's very, very helpful to folks who are building brands in this space. So thank you so much again for joining us. And folks who are listening, stay tuned for a special social segment with Ken. We're gonna be talking about how he ranks brand attributes or the attributes of a particular brand, such as founder, packaging, category, and otherwise. So that should be fun. We're going to do that right now. Perfect. Thank you as always. Thank you so much, Ken. That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening. Taste Radio is a production of BevNET.com Incorporated. Our audio engineer for Taste Radio is Joe Cracci. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt, and our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smerlinski, and our designer is Amanda Huang. Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. And of course, we would love it if you could review us on the Apple Podcasts app or your listening platform of choice. Check us out on Instagram. Our handle is bevnettasteradio. As always, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send us an email to ask at Taste Radio.com. On behalf of the entire Taste Radio team, thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.
[00:54:03] Ken Sadowsky: you
